Blue Screen of DRM Death; or The Death Of Windows Media Center

Comments

# Dean said on 26 September, 2007 01:43 AM

Personally, I'm running MythTV on Ubuntu. It does everything that Windows MCE does, only well, better. To be honest, though, I wouldn't touch LinuxMCE with a 10' pole -- it's just not ready for prime-time yet (the UI is horrible, it has very limited hardware support, etc). And if you don't use the Home Automation stuff that LinuxMCE comes with, there's no point anyway.

I choose MythTV not so much because I was worried about DRM (though that's a factor -- MythTV has excellent commercial flagging features which means I can completely skip commercials: does Windows MCE do that?). The MAIN reason I choose MythTV over Windows MCE is that I'm not going to fork out for Windows Vista Home PREMIUM just so I can run one program all day.

# Anon said on 26 September, 2007 06:58 AM

"Don't worry 'bout it, Ballmer'll walk you though it,

Step by step, you'll be restricted

Patch by patch with the new solution.

Transmit bits, with D.R.M. pollution

Claim the contents irresistible and that's how they move it."

slashdot.org/comments.pl

# dignan said on 26 September, 2007 09:09 AM

You may want to look at MediaPortal as well.

# lmf said on 26 September, 2007 10:13 AM

Due to these and related issues, I no longer buy DVD's or CD's. That may seem extreme to some, but in my case it is not a big deal. I rent DVD's once in a while to play in a DVD player hooked up to the TV, and that is it. When you start playing with this stuff it eats your time and worse is very insulting. I can only imagine how a less technical user would handle this.

# Chris Lanier said on 26 September, 2007 11:25 AM

Jesper:  I'd be interested in your take on LinuxMCE if you go for it.  It is _far_ from Windows Media Center, despite the fact that CGMS-A protection is not there it is not polished no matter what most commenter's online say.

Microsoft has been informed time and time again that there are issues with the CGMS-A DRM that Media Center uses and has done little about it publicly.

If you are interested in sticking with Windows, try Beyond TV or Sage TV.  Both of which are not going to give you this issue.

# AH said on 26 September, 2007 12:34 PM

Your problem is MCE. Use SageTV or BeyondTV if you want to keep Windows.

These will avoid using Microsoft DRM.

# kraemer said on 26 September, 2007 01:18 PM

Everybody that has anything to do with TV needs to look at the music industry and make plans now. The grim reaper is on its way and it wont take prisoners.

People like media. People LOVE convenience. If companies wont make purchasing and viewing media easier than getting it on Bittorrent, then they are just counting down to their demise. They need to stop assuming everybody is a thief and realize people don't mind paying as long as you make it easy, and don't rob them.

# Dan said on 26 September, 2007 01:44 PM

I believe you're missing something here. First of all, I assume you are using Vista MCE (sorry if I missed this) - if not, you will not be able to view DRM protected content (premium channels, etc.).

If you are using Vista, then you need a device that is able to decode the DRM-protected content...Vista does support this. These devices should be available soon - if they're not out already.

One last thing - this really has very little to do with Microsoft. CableLabs/Cable companies are the ones encrypting the content - Microsoft is bound by very strict rules set in place by CableLabs. This is a very long and complicated issue; way too long for this forum.

You really should do more research into this whole issue before posting something like this.

# jesper said on 26 September, 2007 02:10 PM

These are very useful comments. I'm evaluating what I am doing but thanks for the pointers.

Dan, first, I am using XP MCE, not Vista yet as the box I have (one of the HP MCE specialized units) will have problems running Vista.

Second, I obviously have a cable set-top box that does the decrypting. I have had the same setup for two years and it just now stopped working.

Finally, I won't get into the "strict rules set in place by CableLabs" other than to echo Kraemer's comments that DRM is harming legitimate customers as currently designed and pushing people toward engaging in criminal activity because of it.

# Bambi said on 26 September, 2007 02:18 PM

I truly feel for you Jesper! I have posted on my blog in support of this frustration. I can only hope that Microsoft will finally realize that Cory Doctorow was right when he gave is DRM Talk at Microft backin 1994 which is reprinted at my blog for easy reference:

www.bambismusings.com

# Simplicissimus said on 26 September, 2007 02:35 PM

Jesper, please allow me to welcome you to the Linux fold.  I don't think it's any secret that your conversion is inevitable at some point.  The sooner, the better, though, eh?  The Linux community values your skills and insights.  We will be grateful for any contributions you make.

# Vince said on 26 September, 2007 03:59 PM

I too recommned taking a look at MythTV over all others.  It was truely fantastic and leaps and bounds better then XP MCE.  It is so much better written!  Recording info is stored in a database so the screens UI is much snappier.  Must faster to run a DB Query then wait for windows to parse the headers for information then sort it and etc, etc.  You can distribute encoder cards to various computers and they all work togehter.  I could go on and on, but it is really great!

That being said, I am running Media Center now because XBox360's are great, cheap front ends.  Additionally I want to record HDTV over Cable or preferably Dish.  I don't see this happening with any Linux DRM Solution.  At least till the Decoder cards are regularly available and then it be cracked.

Once the DRM is cracked I'll switch back.  I am not in to stealing anything, but DRM is unusable in 99% of the solutions and sometimes it is easier to switch to the "Dark Side".

# starhawk laughingsun said on 26 September, 2007 05:32 PM

DRM was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I used microsoft products since the early days of DOS not perhaps pleased with it always but it sorta worked. But DRM forced to me to reconsider and I switched to Linux somewhat reluctantly as I knew alot about windows and little about linux. but since i switched I have to admit Linux is far superior and I will never go back. I advise everyone i know to do the same.

# boulder said on 26 September, 2007 05:39 PM

DRM is pure filth.

It is high time that tax payers press their politicians for laws that give them some kind of minimum rights.

For instance : if the music and entertainment industry prevents you from creating a backup copy of your CD's and DVD's through copy protection, then they should be forced to swap your scatched copies with a new one for free.

And that is just one example of the battle that needs to be fought.

It is high time that law makers stand up for the general public instead of the "copyright holders", who are permitted to use criminal activities in order to catch other so-called criminals.

Enough is enough.

# Xigam said on 26 September, 2007 05:46 PM

Hi.

@Jesper

I've had this same issue with MCE.. it took me about an hour to fix it. I'm a tech/programmer guy by trade.. I know this would stump many people that don't have the tech skills.

Eventually, reinstalling WMP 10 and following the KB article, I got everything working again..

FYI, my two cents.. XP MCE 2005 is great. I love it. I use it with two modded XBOX's running MS MCX and XBMC. That way I can play anything.. (Because MCE won't play DivX!)

But you are 100% right that DRM is killing it Microsoft.. I bought my girlfriend a PlayforSure device.. the only thing sure about it was that every month all her licensed media would not play and we would have to reformat the device.. I stopped paying for Rhaspody, and have found it easier to just download MP3's and put them on.. no DRM, no issues *EVER*. I won't again use DRM music. I'll go illegal first, even though I really liked the idea of being legal, and was willing to pay some cash for it, I am not willing to pay in sweat for it.

When I record a show in MCE, if the copy protection is enabled.. Good luck viewing that on other devices that don't support windows media player copy protection.. If you look around, you will be able to find a box that will strip the cdma broadcast flag from the signal before you feed it into your computer.. So you can get around the cdma broadcast flag with some hardware.

So.. I love XP MCE 2005.. it's DRM is not invasive enough to drive me to another product.. BUT..

Vista won't work with my V1 MCE Extenders (old XBox's), one of the reasons it doesn't is because of Vista's DRM.

And Vista's DRM is throughout the system.. I really doubt that my next media machine will be Windows BECAUSE of the DRM. Anytime I mess with it, I get hit with usability issues that only a tech can solve, and when I'm watching TV.. I don't want to be working, I want to be playing..

So I'd like to hear what you think of LinuxMCE..

I myself and looking at  MythTV and a (future) Linux port of XBMC to run on a small fanless box for my next media center setup.. I don't have faith in MS dumping DRM.. but I do have alot of faith in me dumping DRM..

@Dean

DVRMSToolbox for Microsoft MCE 2005/Vista does an awesome job of skipping commercials. I think it can use the same Dragon(something) program to analyze the media stream that can also be used on MythTV and BeyondTV. It's 3rd party.. by default, you cannot skip.. but you can add it easy.

@Dan

I think you are the one that needs to do more research. It doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about.

Most people use XP MCE 2005 with a cablebox to decode the cable-encoding, the cdma-a broadcast flag is something different..  XP MCE 2005 does indeed work with protected channels.. cable descrambler vs cdma-a broadcast flag.. look it up and get current.

# JD said on 26 September, 2007 06:15 PM

While no one wants to get into a debate about how to properly diagnose a specific tech support issue, I can appreciate the extreme annoyance of having your system fall down around your ankles.

The more important discussion is around the DRM restrictions that continue to be put in place by content providers. Until those minds can be changed, the only way to have a consistent and acceptable user experience will be to live outside the law.

# lmf said on 26 September, 2007 07:53 PM

Dan:

It's guys like you who have made Windows just as annoying as Linux. It doesn't "just work" so give it a rest. As for "research" why the heck should I have to do that?

I don't know that Linux offers a better solution, but at least once it's set up it works, for crying out loud. It just takes longer to get it working. But answers like yours are useless.

# Heatlesssun said on 26 September, 2007 09:57 PM

I've been using Windows Media Center XP and now Vista since 2003.  Right now I do not have any of Media Centers (have two) plugged to a cable box.  I used OTA high def and analog cable, with ZERO problems.  I'm trying to figure out how to do a cable card Media Center, but its not a super big deal, most of the TV I like comes through the analog and OTA.  

How EXACTLY are you connecting your cable box to your Media Center?  Blame Microsoft all you want, but its the cable companies that are encrypting the high-def signals out of the cable box.  Component should work fine however.

I've tried MythTV and LinuxMCE and they ARE NOT SIMPLE TO SETUP EVEN NOW!!!!!!!  I might try to work with them some more, but they STILL wouldn't solve the problem of getting a digital high def singal from the cable box, that's encrpyted, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DVR SYSTEM!

If I'm wrong please correct me.

Bottom line, I've got two Vista Media Centers with a total of four analog cable and for OTA digital tuners.  I can copy and burn as much as I like as LONG as the source media is not encrypted.

Yeah, DRM sucks, but tell you cable company that, not Microsoft.  

# Dean said on 27 September, 2007 12:52 AM

Xigam: thanks, I was not aware of that! But then, with TiVo and they way they handle commersials nowadays, it doesn't bode well for commersial PVR software.

By the way, if you have a modded XBOX, you can get MythTV extenders for it if you ever choose to go the MythTV route. The only limitation is that an XBOX isn't powerful enough to decode HD content...

# Bambi said on 27 September, 2007 07:16 AM

RE: Yeah, DRM sucks, but tell your cable company that, not Microsoft.

The problem actually lies on three or more sides.

DRM wouldn't work if the hardware  didn't have the DRM built in (hardware like DVD players/recorders for computers, video cards, etc., phones, cable boxes, etc.), ~~ AND ~~ if Microsoft (and other OS vendors) didn't enable the content providers, particularly the ubiquitous Microsoft products, particularly the DRM infested Vista. That's why I call Vista, The Enabler.

Without Microsoft's  enabling of the content providers with 'control over what YOU BUY' through the operating system and without CE companies providing 'features' CUSTOMERS DO NOT WANT, then, the content providers (entertainment cartels) would have to provide something that works or not make as much money.

Either way, once you get Operating System vendors and Consumer Electronics manufactures to stop giving in to the entertainment cartels, then you only have to deal with one side of the equation...the content providers aka the entertainment cartels.

But there is a fourth side of the equation as well. Customers. What are customers willing to sacrifice to be able to view movies, TV shows, connect with their devices, play their music, etc. on their computers, phones, PDAs, etc.

As customers, I think we all have to think long and hard on that one; not only for ourselves but what our actions -- or inaction -- will mean to our children and grandchildren? Each generation will have to deal with ever increasing restrictions and invasive behaviors by the entertainment cartels and worse. It's the Pavlov's Dog syndrome yet again -- they will never be satisified with what they could get from customers before as technology gets more and more sophisticated.

I think earlier generations realized this. Do we?

# Xigam said on 27 September, 2007 09:26 AM

@Dean

I have heard of the MythTV extenders, but have not seen much about it. I _think_ MythTV does work on Windows too .. so there might be a migration path there that still includes Windows.

@Heatlesssun

You are right about the cable DRM.. there is the cable DRM that your box or cablecard has to decode, and they are the ones slowing the standards for PC-CableCARD adapters, and requiring Microsoft to honor their encryption via MS DRM.. Microsoft is trying to play ball with the cable companies, but the cable companies are very restrictive.

The reason that Microsoft MCE has the DRM that obey's the broadcast flag/digitalHD is more because of the content providers than Microsoft.

@ nobody

The broadcast flag that HBO, on-demand, and other preimum channels broadcast over the analog signal is what is triggering the MCE DRM.

But if the DRM is working then you won't notice it until you try to convert the file to another format, or convert/play it on a non-windows-DRM device like an iPod.

Or of course, if your Windows DRM breaks like has happened to many of us, then you will notice too..

MPEG 4, is 10 times more compressed, if you want to record and archive a season of shows, then you can reduce your storage from 3.5 gigs per hour to as low as 350 megs per hour, or maybe you want to convert to watch on your iPod, you'd have to crack the DRM first, or strip the broadcast flag from the analog signal before it enters your computer. Doing that is going to get harder and harder.

If DRM worked, _universally_and_without_fail_. I guess that would be one thing.. but it doesn't. And so the solution is no DRM. Amazon is now selling MP3's, so perhaps sometimes soon you'll be able to stream/download video without DRM..

Netflix offers a video streaming service for movies, but you can't save/view them on other devices, or even pipe it over into Media Center which I would have liked to do. So if I wanted to use Netflix's service, I'd have to view it on a Windows computer because of DRM, and in the browser not MCE. Same with all video services that I have checked out.

Not only that, with DRM it seems that you would often be getting into a situation where you are paying for the media over and over in order to view it on other devices.

Maybe it's a wider problem then Microsoft. Microsoft is just more willing to play ball with the content people on their DRM quest than others.

DRM stops legitimate consumers from having the best possible media experience.

# petro said on 27 September, 2007 11:59 AM

Гореть тебе виста в огне

# orlusha said on 29 September, 2007 03:36 AM

Hi Bambi, You've almost found a correct term for it.

Here is the stomach, digestion is its function. When a man has a diarrhea, it is called a DISFUNCTION.

So, media playback is called "functionality", so DRM should be regarded a "DISFUNCTIONALITY".

Let us call "DISFUNCTIONALITY (TM)" an operation that requires time and cost to develop, consumes resources AND IS DIRECTED AGAINST END USER  NEEDS.

Please use this word in your reviews to distinguish between features and disfeatures to make it clear for everybody.

# Squonk said on 15 October, 2007 08:33 PM

Jesper you remember me from  tech-ed traing back in the day good ol' hacking the M$ gravytrain well since then i've stepped up and moved into the consumer on demand market and it was interesting the DRM issues these folks talked about we've been dealing with on a more legal issue please everybody here and in the wind come join us EFF.org Electronic Freedom Foundation and take your rights back!  its the polititians who fear the armed peasants. anyway yes cluge software makes everybodys life miserable but stick a piece of vxworks code into a microprocessor and build a $10 device to do everything you need in an MCE and tell the bloatware what you think about itself. seems everybody else did the talking for me so these are the only 2 cents i have left. pleasure finding your blog whilst looking to solve a mce problem

# Eric Eskam said on 17 October, 2007 09:16 AM

Meh - I want HD content, and unfortunately all of it is encumbered by some sort of DRM.  So I took the path of least resistance - I stuck with my cable company and got a Tivo Series 3.  Does all I want, and "it just works" (well, once the inept cable company figured out how to configure my account in their billing system so it would authorize my cable cards).

I like the idea of Media Center or Myth, but dealing with cable labs is just ridiculous.  I'm hoping things like video podcasting will tilt the balance back towards us, the consumers.

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